14 Comments on Not getting far with the IAA I’m afraid.

Hubby on Sun, 9th Aug 2009 8:26 pm


Well, at least the IAA are being systematic in their advice.
1. Person asks question.
2. Answer the question by reference to ‘systematically’.
3. Answer any follow up questions quoting ‘systematically’.
4. Ignore the very legislation they are responsible for administering, and deem any publicly available information that is written about as ‘providing advice systematically’.
5. refer back to 3.


Hubby on Sun, 9th Aug 2009 8:28 pm


Of course, I could use a random jargon generator, like http://www.mwls.co.uk/resources/jargon.htm, to write my posts about Immigration – since it’s random it can’t be systematic.

William on Sun, 9th Aug 2009 9:11 pm


Nice post.

I would imagine that in this context systematically means both regularly and often.

so regularly, once a year, on a forum is not systematic, but regularly once a day probably is.

Then if the answers are researched using immigration sources, newspapers and so on, then that too is systematic in the approach. i.e. The answer is not ad hoc advice from personal experience.

But who reallly knows? Not immigration that’s for sure.

Hubby on Sun, 9th Aug 2009 9:34 pm


Hi William
Yep – and that’s the problem. If I spout random crap that isn’t helpful – it’s not advice.
If I share something I know to be true based on experience – that’s advice.


Avalon on Sun, 9th Aug 2009 10:24 pm


I think you have hit the nail on the head William, and yes – that IS the problem. It means you can go on a forum and give “advice” (because thats what it is) and that advice can be totally wrong – and you wont break the law. But if you look things up to make sure you are telling people the right think – then you are breaking the law.

Either way – the IAA need to explicitly say that, and then explain why you can legally give incorrect information about immigration, but not correct and researched information, and how on earth that protects migrants to New Zealand.

The law clearly states that you must not use your personal experience to advise on immigration matters. But it also seems you cant now use the information provided by NZIS.

Its a right pigs ear

Domestic Executive on Mon, 10th Aug 2009 6:39 am


Crikey, I can tell you are almost fit to burst about this.

My take on this is that if you are being deliberate and systematic in your intentions to pass on official information or advice/information about immigration, systems and processes then you are acting as if you are an immigration advisor. If you are regular contributor to a forum i.e. you monitor and participate in forums specifically to pass on your knowledge and information about “how to” or “how not to” then you would be adopting the role of advisor rather than just contributor based on experience.

If you simply pass on a link to the official information sources (not repeat or interpret what they say) that would be OK but where you do the research and interpretation that would be advice.

Writing a blog that has a specific purpose to explain information published by NZIS to inform other people about how to navigate the immigration system would constitute “advice” and you’d need to be licensed. If you just told your story about your immigration experience and then just posted a link to NZIS site that would not be advice.

By it’s very nature legislation is often open to interpretation and the reason it’s subject to testing in court. The recent tax case being taken by the banks is a good example of where the banks think that they have complied with the law but the Govt and seemingly the Courts seem to think that they have broken the intent and spirit of the law.

Hope you get the definition you’re looking for. As always the law is there to legislate for the lowest common denominator which is for people who may intentionally seek to advise people in an unlawful and inaccurate way in order to benefit. Clearly you’re not in that situation but still have to be governed by the same rules as the bozos who want to rip people off and stupid so they tell people the wrong thing.

Good luck with getting the clarity you’re looking for. JT

Avalon on Mon, 10th Aug 2009 9:22 am


Hi DE,

Thats certainly what it looks like – which then begs the questions: why should I be breaking a law for writing an immigration blog? Why should any migrant for that matter not be able to write about thier experiences with migrating to New Zealand and pass that on?

Why does every blog and forum for and by expats now have to simply be about life in New Zealand (which is great for advertising the place) but cannot talk about the immigartion process because we are breaking a law?

Am I the only one who thinks that it’s sick to gag migrants this way? That New Zealand has just shown itself to be a place that says you do not have freedom of speech if you are a migrant?

Would we accept this if the UK or US government said that Migrants were not allowed to talk about thier experience and pass it on to others? I don’t think we would – but we do because it’s New Zealand!

And why should a huge swathe of people be exempt from the law when they are people that so often get thier facts wrong! Why is John Hayes exempt and allowed under the law to give out incorrect immigration advice and get away with it – potentially costing migrants who don’t know any different an awful lot of money – and possibly thier visas?

Im all for legislating the problems – but we need to stop BAD advice – stop people on forums saying that you can do something in your immigration application that you cant – stop people saying that just becuase THEY had a certain experience -its going to be the same for everyone. This is the sort of thing that should be stopped – because a lot of the information going out on forums is just not true. A lot of information being given out by “Licenced advisors” is also costing migrants thousands of dollars and thier immigration status – and they get away with it.

And yet – my blog breaks a law???

It worries me that more people are not angry about this.

William on Mon, 10th Aug 2009 10:15 am


Isn’t there a difference between advice and opinion, though? Advice is in order to help make a decision and opinion is … er… well, Not about helping make a decision. If someone acts on your opinion, then that’s their lookout, isn’t it?

Surely you can’t mean that you are not allowed to write about your experiences with immigration….

that would be an intrusion on freedom of speech and the press.

Avalon on Mon, 10th Aug 2009 4:16 pm


William, I honestly do not know the answer to that That is basically why I’m trying to get some clarification, because I need to know exactly what I can write and what I can’t. I do not intend to break the law, but the IAA wont be clear about what the law is.

DE’s interpretation of the act is actually excellent as far as I’m concerened and if that is what the IAA were saying – then it gives pretty clear guidelines as to what I can do and what I cant do. I may not agree with it – but its clear and concise. Problem is the IAA are being too wooly and inconsistant,

Mike from Move2NZ for example was clearly giving his opinion on immigration policy from the government, clearly not giving advice, and yet he got a warning from the IAA, because a “licenced agent” took offence. (ignoring the fact that maybe a licenced agent or two might like to stand up and point out some of the problems migrants are facing right now )

The other thing is – that why shouldnt we give advice to other migrants? By not allowing us to do so it actually already impinges on our right to free speech as far as I can see. I don’t need a licence to talk about budgeting, kiwisaver, banks, but I do if I want to to talk about how to sponsor your parents to New Zealand. It doesnt make sense to me.

Also with opinion – I was under the impression that you still had to be careful about what you give as an opinion – and if someone acted on it and suffered because of it – then you could be held liable for it. This is why I have always spent time checking facts before I post on a forum or on here – because I would hate for someone to act on something i write and suffer becasue I got it wrong. It does annoy the hell out of me that this may be thing the means Im on the wrong side of the law.

Avalon on Mon, 10th Aug 2009 4:17 pm


Just want to say thanks and cheers for the comments so far – this is really helping me clarify things

I appreciate it

Domestic Executive on Tue, 11th Aug 2009 8:27 am


Glad to see you’re getting towards some clarity. I can tell this matters a great deal to you – you’ve got a blog that focuses on emigration and you want to get it right.

I used to work for NHS Direct and we definitely offered information and advice. The distinction was that information was to help people make informed choices for themselves, advice was where we proferred an expert opinion and recommended that they take certain action. Sometimes they did and sometimes they didn’t and when it went wrong our advice was assessed for clinical and other reasonable measures of soundness.

Unless you’re setting up this blog to advise people what to do, I reckon you are safe to pass opinion and provide information (preferably by linking them directly to information published by NZIS)).

Avalon on Tue, 11th Aug 2009 11:29 am


Cheers DE

Funnily enough – I have also been thinking of this in terms of medicine. I used to be a pharmacist where there are strict boundaries about what you can and cannot say unless you are registered as a pharmacist. But what that law does not stop the general public doing is offering advice on forums, or to other people in similar situations – no matter hw well researched that advice is. The law simply states that you cannot pass yourself off as a pharmacist – nor can you sell goods that by law a pharmacist only can sell, unless you are registered to do so.

A law this badly written means that thousands of health related websites would be illegal, and in fact – if you usual responce to people getting headaches was to alwasy say “take a paracetamol” – you could be breaking the law.

And yeah – this has become very important to me. Im putting up a video today why may explain why I get my knickers in a twist over stuff like this

I think this is up there with NZIS refusing to publish thier complaints process – it can only harm potential migrants to New Zealand, and will end up forcing more of them to pay agents in order to get thier visas.

Jame on Thu, 7th Jan 2010 12:48 am


I’d hate to be honest with you my friend but you have a problem with immigration. And I’m happy about this. I would rather see your brother not get into New Zealand. I was born in New Zealand and most of my community (or those that can be considered true kiwi’s) believe that it is immigrants that destroy my country. You feed off the Goverment and you love the fact that New Zealand allows you benefits that your country did not offer you. You will offer nothing back to this country. I have sat here and watched imigrants come into my country and complain that we are underdeveloped and completley judge our ways of life. You migrants need to realise that you may be in New Zealand but if you are to come into our country you need to stop complaining otherwise pack your bags and go home. Because if you have a problem with our laws (as you are stating above) then why are you here? Why would you come to New Zealand? You anger me emensly with your complaints and I am sick of hearing about people like you.

Hubby on Fri, 8th Jan 2010 12:05 am


There are just sooo many ways to answer this, where to start?

Well first off, we’re all for Freedom of Speech & Expression – hence why the above comment was allowed through.

- Unlike the IALA, which this thread was originally about. Which confines the freedom of speech of everyone in the world to not talk about emigration matters that relate to NZ. Wow! That’s extra-jurisdictional powers for you.

The laws of a country have very little to do with either what it’s citizens are like, or the quality of life. It’s only a reflection of how much control the political classes attempt to exert over the rest of us plebs. In many ways the USA is worse than China – but we all have preconceptions about the relative quality of life in both countries. Still, that’s a whole other debate, and one we can have in NZ as this is a free and democratic country.

‘True Kiwi’s’ – right – by whose ‘true’ definition? It’s funny that even in your community there are those you don’t consider true kiwi’s.

You can believe that it’s immigrants, or whomever your like, that destroy a country – doesn’t make it true. If anything immigrants breathe a life blood into NZ which it would suffer and degrade without. Still NZ, like various countries, is built on immigration. The only difference is how far back our ancestors arrived here to settle. All Kiwi’s are immigrants. It’s a shame some see that as some form of offensive remark they can throw around.

Feeding off of the Govt? I don’t think so. I pay more tax than the average Kiwi earns in pre-tax income. {actually, according to Stats NZ, it’s twice the average income} So if anything I’m feeding the Govt., and paying tax equivalent to the average income for two civil servants, who are then able to support their families. Still, that’s a whole other debate on what’s fair taxation or not.

Added to that, I own a number of rental properties. So I’m subsidizing the living costs of three other families who otherwise couldn’t afford to live in the homes that they currently live in. Now, I don’t claim to do that for entirely charitable reasons. It’s still more of a contribution than the Govt. is making to low cost affordable housing in my area.

Benefits that my country of birth didn’t offer me? erm, let me think on that… Nope there are none. If I wanted to just bum around all day living off of the benefit income from Govt. I’d be much worse off in NZ.

NZ under developed? Sorry hold on a sec, didn’t you just say that NZ can give me all these wonderful social benefits my birth country doesn’t offer me? NZ is under developed compared to many European countries – that’s simply a function of how old the country is & how many people live there. Older country, more historical infrastructure, history and investment. More people, more services required. Of course that’s a generalism, modern day Iraq/Iran really formed the first nation state as we would consider it today, yet they don’t have as much historical infrastructure left over as say Rome. Similarly Australia has a much larger population, similar age, yet no significant advantage over NZ that is simply due to population.

Anyhow, I digress. That NZ is under developed compared with other European countries is, personally speaking, a good thing. There’s too much development in some Euroland countries, impact on the environment, unsustainable population growth etc.

Offering anything back to the country?
Well yes, the rest of my life.
My loyalty & citizenship.
The ability to spell.
The efforts of my labours, economic benefit derived from that, productivity, enhancements to other NZ businesses, tax income, whit, charm, sophistication – how shall I continue??

Stop complaining? Well, if you can’t tell the difference between observation, contrast, comparison etc. – then who am I to complain.

I don’t judge, NZ is a different country, things are simply different here. Much like the past, which some people complain about, others reminisce about. We don’t live in the past, we live in the present.

Still, this isn’t ‘your’ country – this country belongs to every one of its citizens. If you want your own country, bugger off to somewhere you can exercise dictatorial powers.

Individuals claiming to speak for a community or country, where their views don’t reflect those of others around, also angers me immensely. They paint a poor & unrepresentative picture of a country, which other people then get a bad impression of.

Still, thanks for the stimulating debate, and a wonderful illustration of why NZ still needs smart, literate, productive and experienced people to live here and stay living here.

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